Tag: meta

[[ I’d like to discuss several things about Sasuke’s novel but one currently presses my mind: Naruto’s mentioning of Itachi after the war. 

Naruto offered Itachi’s name as a hero who helped save Konoha. I will type word for word the excerpt right now. I will bold what I feel is important but all the text is otherwise exactly the same.

“Naruto was telling people that after he was brought back with the Edotensei, Itachi had helped them for the sake of the world. Naruto would have known about the coup d’état, but without touching on that, he simply offered up Itachi’s name as one of the ninja who had helped him out in the Great War.

Sasuke didn’t expect that this would make everyone simply accept it, but there was no one who doubted Naruto. Even if there had been, Naruto would no doubt have not given up, but simply continued to tell his story. Putting aside the question of whether Itachi would have wanted it, perhaps the day would come when the feeling that Itachi had some kind of reason for what he did would sprout in Konoha.”

So, to summarize.
1) Naruto publicly listed Itachi as a hero during the war.
2) No one fought him on this, they simply accepted it.
3) HAD someone doubted him he would’ve just kept pressing the story.

This just feels…weird, to me? Without explaining the coup and the reason behind the massacre, or essentially “here’s why Itachi isn’t actually a genocidal mass murderer”, no one has any reason to believe Itachi would willingly help the village. But Naruto’s word is…law? He said it therefore it must certainly be true (which, technically it is but the fact no one questioned it is off-putting.)

Secondly, Itachi…didn’t want it. He really didn’t want his name passed around as a hero, that’s why he asked Naruto to remain mum on the details of the coup and to save Sasuke from scrutiny and punishment in his stead. Itachi wanted Sasuke to be the hero, not him. 

It creates this weird divide. Suddenly, all public opinion on Itachi is…positive? This man who’s been known for the murder of his clan, this member of Akatsuki, who attacked the village and nearly killed everyone in it (even if Itachi was dying by Sasuke at this time, he was still a member of Akatsuki. A rule of association.)

There wasn’t any real reason to mention Itachi to the public, none at all. And yet this creates a divide of positive public opinion of Itachi and negative opinion on Sasuke. 

Mass Genocidal Itachi saves the world by helping during the war.

“Crazy Psychotic” Sasuke causes a world war and wants to kill everyone. 

Rrrghh. ]]

uchihasavior:

[[ …You know, I keep seeing a bunch of SNS fans complain about Sakura’s behavior in her novel. She learns she’s tired of waiting for Sasuke, and wants to chase after him until he wears down and accepts her.

SNS fans are the least qualified to comment negatively on this behavior. Naruto is the king of the “chase after Sasuke until you get what you want” club. ]]

#well naruto was trying to save sasuke#whereas sakura is chasing after a love that isn’t there#so i don’t really think it’s fair to compare the two

[[ No, I’ve gotten this excuse at least 20+ times today, and it ends now. The number of people using this excuse is ridiculous. Just because Naruto had “good intentions” doesn’t mean his harassment and stalking of Sasuke is justified. Sasuke isn’t some damsel in need of rescuing. He tells Naruto and Sakura to leave him alone, and the only reason they get hurt in the beginning of Shippuden is because they’re stupid and can’t realize no means no.

Naruto chases Sasuke because he thinks he knows what’s better for him. The goals Sasuke wants aren’t acceptable, and he will force Sasuke to be on a team that no longer functions, and in a village whose system actively hurts him. And he’s gonna do jack shit about this system. Nothing. Team 7 is a mess, yet Sasuke isn’t allowed to leave it.

He has positive bonds, like Taka. But guess what– Naruto hates Taka. 

Both Naruto and Sakura chase Sasuke because they want something from him, and allowing Sasuke time to come to this decision on his own– or god forbid, tell them no, isn’t acceptable.

Besides, I did specify SNS fans, which means they want Naruto and Sasuke to enter a romantic relationship after Naruto’s done literally physically beating him into submission. It is comparable, except in Sakura’s defense, she at least won’t use her fists to do it. 

Let me add…

“

sakura was chasing her “love” and naruto was chasing his “friend”

neither one of those things is inherently more selfish than the other if the other person doesn’t want to be in that role.
“
]]

anele-anomis:

uchihasavior:

shisuicune replied to your post:
uminosclassroom replied to your post:
…

nothing is really illegal if you’re in the Naruto’s Friends Club (unless you’re Sasuke, of course)

[[ Sasuke’s position is so weird because yes I’ll agree he got pardoned solely because Kakashi and Naruto made a case for it (I’d say Naruto more than Kakashi and Naruto pressing it had to be done and Kakashi had the official power to do it as Rokudaime) but the situation was skewed heavily against Sasuke to the point where Sasuke’s told to  be GRATEFUL for them doing this. For them making Sasuke look like he just went ~psycho~ but it’s fine we have him under control now he wont go crazy again uwu ]]

It’s pretty f*cked up because how can you wish to kill the one that saved your live and sorry ass?

And I truly don’t know what to do with Sasuke’s “I didn’t think you will come…” to Naruto on the moment of starting his journey… 

Is as they didn’t see one another for some time… as much time as to make Sasuke to think that Naruto doesn’t care anymore…

[[ “how can you wish to kill someone that saved your life and sorry ass” 

Who is this in reference to? Naruto didn’t want to kill Sasuke, he refuse to let Sasuke die. If you’re referring to the rest of the shinobi world, they have a lot of reasons to hate Sasuke and most of them stem from NOT knowing his backstory. ]]

Is it me or do lots of people seem to think that because since Itachi is a good liar and can be manipulative, seems to make people believe that it’s impossible for someone like him to be manipulated and lied at too even though he very much has been?

[[ I need to make a couple of disclaimers before I tackle this question, because this sort “Itachi cannot be manipulated” sentiment usually comes from very specific circles. Firstly, I’m not pro-ending. I have a lot of issues with the main Naruto ending, but I do consider it as canon because it honestly is canon. Nothing I can say can change that. 

Now.. this sort of statement towards Itachi mostly seems to stem from anti-ending blogs. You’ll see it a lot, “Itachi is just a Leaf supporter” “Itachi is an unrepentant mass murderer” (I have literally seen this one), “Itachi excuses the village’s system”, “Itachi being good is just a bad plot twist”, “Itachi should’ve stayed a villain” “Itachi is just as bad as Tobirama”, etc. 

I’ve spoken about this before, but, when dealing with Itachi, most of the people who deal with Itachi (myself included in the past) have this mindset of treating him like an adult in all situations. And by adult, I mean “he is an adult therefore all his decisions are his own and nothing and no one else influenced him.” Essentially, the fact that Itachi was very intelligent and skilled somehow makes him immune to manipulation and being used. Which is just, as a whole, very very wrong. 

I know there’s a term for this somewhere. I can’t figure out what it is, but I will someday. Usually the biggest argument is the massacre. Itachi was 13 years old. And sometimes they’ll argue back, well in-universe this is considered an adult, especially considering his rank as an ANBU. And sure, we can run with that for in-universe context, but then they fail to apply the same context to every other person. Suddenly, everyone else is children, but Itachi’s some adult and has to bear the full responsibility of his actions. People like Danzo, Hiruzen, and Fugaku to some extent get away scott free when it comes to how they shaped Itachi. Danzo and Hiruzen get their own set of complaints, but none of how they used Itachi. That never gets rightly placed on them. 

I also think most of the blogs who do this haven’t read Shinden. Which I may reiterate, is also canon material. Kishi did sanction these novels, even though he didn’t personally pen them himself. May I say again, canon is canon whether you like it or not. It’s something that can be difficult to accept for some, but you’ll feel a whole lot better when you do. You don’t have to like it, and you can criticize it, but that doesn’t change what actually happened. 

The novel is like a full explanation of how Itachi was manipulated. This fear of seeing that bloody battlefield is a recurring theme for Itachi. He doesn’t want to see that fighting again. He gets reminded by Danzo if he doesn’t take this very specific path, then actual fighting will break out and it will escalate. The threat of the Uchiha V Village situation escalating is one that’s always on his mind. Sasuke is used against him near the end. 

Itachi is very much skewed against his clan early on, as well. There was very much the potential for Itachi to see the racism against his clan for what it is– racism. But he always found ways to excuse what personally happened to him. Kids bother him? They’re just kids. Anbu angry that the Kyuubi killed his sister and is therefore the fault of all the Uchiha? Ehh, he’s just jealous I’m the youngest ANBU. It…honestly baffled me how Itachi could hear that man say that and just shrug it off. Agreeing to keep the surveillance a secret because it would make his clan angry (as it should). Because if they find out they’ll get mad and push their plans or attack now, and in Itachi’s mind  attack = bloody  battlefield. He’s literally 5 when the compound is built. It doesn’t matter how smart he thinks he is, his thinking is that of a child. Children will find positives. Oh, we’re being stuffed together at the end of the village? Why be mad, we can all be a family together and I can raise Sasuke somewhere quietly. Also look! They’re building our homes first, how can we be mad?

Not only that, but I think these people ignore things Itachi said in the manga, too. Sometimes I think they skipped the entire fight vs Kabuto. Itachi touches on clan pride, Itachi readily admits the village system has issues. The only thing I disagree with is that it has to be left to the younger people to fix, but I digress. He’s not much of a revolution person himself. 

Adding, Shisui died. Shisui was the person Itachi trusted the most and looked up to the most. Itachi felt terrible, he felt alone, and he was desperate for help. It is SO much easier to use Itachi and sway him into a decision after the person he was taking advice from is gone. Itachi wasn’t the brains behind stopping the massacre, Shisui was. And now Shisui’s gone, and he has no idea what to do. 

Beh. Anyways, my main point is that Itachi was used and manipulated, even if he doesn’t ~act~ like people think a normal manipulation victim should. That’s part of manipulation, of the victim not noticing or not being able to admit it. It’s how the abusers get away with it. So by ignoring that pretending this was literally all Itachi’s fault, you’re letting his abusers get away with it.

Now…..I’m not saying Itachi is except from any criticism period. Not at all. There’s definitely a lot to be discussed. He definitely has flaws. But there’s a point between valid criticism and blind hate and refusal to acknowledge that Itachi was used. Just as much as Sasuke was used.

Serena also wrote a long post about this, which I suggest reading. ]]

king-sasuke:

uchiha clan: are legitimately oppressed in the village

uchiha clan: are sequestered to the edge for the actions of one rogue who hated the clan anyways, have their budget cut, are considered dangerous, are barred from holding important office with in the village

uchiha clan: are slaughtered when they had the right to rebel

uchiha clan: are hunted after for their eyes, by the very man who ordered their slaughter and by an ex Sannin

uchiha clan: is still persecuted despite only two remaining members and then eventually one, to the point the last remaining member has to stay away from the village because enemies will come to the village itself for his eyes

fandom, somehow, anyways: lol the uchiha clan is so dramatic :/ they need to stop

sasukerevolution:

I find that when it comes to Itachi there’s two kind of extremes that people tend to fall under/towards. It seems people either see him as having done nothing wrong and dismiss the severity of the consequences of his actions after the reveal that he was working for Konoha/to protect Sasuke, and others see him as basically a person who had 100% agency over his actions, made terrible decisions, and was handled irresponsibly by the series and Kishimoto. While I’m not the latter and disagree with most of those points, my stance is closer to it than it is to the former. This means I end up seeing/reading stuff in that vein a lot, and there’s one point that I think tends to be a bit missing from the conversation. It came up while I was talking to @someone-who-is-there​ about some points on this thread. 

When we talk about Itachi and his actions regarding the Uchiha clan, it is necessary to take into account the context of his situation with Danzo, who heavily manipulated Itachi and had a major role in Itachi’s final decision. This got long, so it’s under a cut. 

Keep reading

[[ 

Statement 1: Itachi was taking medicine for years for his illness, all to keep himself alive.

Statement 2: Obito was acutely aware of this. Including the length of time Itachi was taking medicine, and that his illness was eating him from the inside out.

Initial conclusion: Kisame was reporting Itachi’s status back to Obito. Given Kisame was one of the first members of Obito’s Akatsuki, he is assigned to watch over Itachi.

Problem: Kisame doesn’t like backstabbers, or people who withhold information, as evidenced by his backstory.

Secondary conclusion: Obito, being the one who originally recruited Itachi into Akatsuki to begin with, regularly had meetings with him. Obito was his supplier of medicine, knowing Itachi was a problem who would take care of himself at the “right time.” Kisame was still assigned to watch over Itachi, but more to compliment his abilities and keep him safe, rather than reporting back to Obito.

Thoughts welcome.

addendum: The Jinraiden novel specifically mentions that Itachi traveled to it to retrieve his medicine. This village is his supplier.

Tertiary conclusion by @antatchaburu: Zetsu is spying on Itachi and reporting back to obito.

Problem: Zetsu had no idea Itachi was sick during his fight with Sasuke.

final, but not permanent or serious conclusion: Itachi is silly and makes things too complicated. Itachi why are you like this. ]]

In your honest opinion, do you think Itachi’s generally good intentions overall absolve him from the damage he did to Sasuke’s psyche and, as a result, the damage Sasuke could’ve caused to the Elemental Nations? Do you think Itachi still has the right to claim he loves Sasuke after all he’s done to hurt him? (Please note that this isn’t to dig on Itachi so much as for me to hear your own thoughts on his actions.)

[[ Well, let’s go over it point by point. Also, I don’t mind when people criticize Itachi, he’s not exempt form it. My exception is when someone clearly isn’t looking at the whole picture and just wants to bitch. You can criticize a character while still liking them.

do you think Itachi’s generally good intentions overall absolve him from the damage he did to Sasuke’s psyche-

[[ No. Itachi’s good intentions relied on abusing and manipulating his brother. He thought that torturing Sasuke and leading Sasuke into thinking he was the villain was going to be good for Sasuke in the end. He recognizes this is wrong. This is why in chapters 588-590, he doesn’t excuse himself. He doesn’t say things like “but I meant well”, and so on. He knows it doesn’t matter. It doesn’t erase the damage he caused. Sasuke will have to live with that forever. ]]

and, as a result, the damage Sasuke could’ve caused to the Elemental Nations?

[[ The result Sasuke could’ve done to the nations lies more on Obito than it does Itachi. If Itachi had his way, Sasuke wouldn’t have blamed the village for the death of his clan and Itachi– he would’ve blamed Itachi. Obito was the one who revealed the truth and turned Sasuke into someone with the ability to start a war. ]]

Do you think Itachi still has the right to claim he loves Sasuke after all he’s done to hurt him?

[[ Yes. Though Itachi can’t force Sasuke to accept that claim. He can only still tell him he loves him. It’s Sasuke’s right to accept or reject that love.

The reason why I say yes is that Itachi fully admits his mistake and makes no excuses. He loves him for real. He’s willing to let Sasuke go, or to let Sasuke reject him. ]]

shisuicune replied to your post:
[[ Consider: Mikoto realizing Itachi doesn’t come…

I feel like she even convinces herself that Itachi doesn’t need her anymore after he saves her during the kyuubi attack.They both distance themselves from each other, thinking it’s for the best :/

[[ It’s probably a common mentality, too. Like– not to say it’s right, but it’s just how the culture works. The mother’s role extends to clothe and feed her children, and affection between parents/kids is usually reserved for the child under a certain age, the younger sibling (she was much more attached to sasuke than itachi), or if the child is a daughter (sakura > sarada and hinata >himawari).

Plus, (and I’ll have to find the passage again), you’re essentially an adult when you reach genin age. As in, a legal adult. It’s why Fugaku thinks Itachi has a girlfriend at 12. The only reason he tries to convince himself otherwise is because Itachi’s too focused on other things to give romance a chance, and not his age. To us it makes no sense, sure, but within the context of the universe the rules and what is “normal” changes. ]]